Finding a Voice
Friday, May 25, 2007
cars, dating, and money: Lauren Winner
Tonight I listened to (watched) half of an interview with Lauren Winner on the subject of dating. It's part of a series from Calvin College: http://www.calvin.edu/innercompass/media/ic714.mp4.
At one point Lauren and her interviewer, Karen, discuss the role of automobiles and money in the dating game. Here's the excerpt:
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KAREN: Let's back up to that for just a minute. As you outline briefly in your essay, dating is a fairly recent occurence that comes about partly because the automobile makes it possible to leave the house. My grandmother tells stories that she was forbidden to date men with automobiles -- she found one with an airplane, but that was just to frustrate her parents, I think. But prior to that, and I thought this was really interesting, a woman really had an awful lot of power in a relationship in that it was up to her to invite or permit a young man to come court her, to come visit her, that was within her control. Dating reverses that.
LAUREN: And that's a very interesting point in terms of the way that some evangelical writers, back to the gender roles issue, say that women should not initiate in a dating relationship. Well, in the, say, late 19th century and there was no dating yet, and people "called on" young women, as you say, it was really up to the young woman and her parents to receive or not receive someone who was coming to call on her. And the woman really actually did have a lot more authority than she had in, say, 1930. So what had happened by 1930 was, as you say, the automobile made it possible for people not to just sit on the front porch, but to actually go out on a date. And what happened when people began going out was that dating became associated with spending money. So you knew you were going on a date when money was being spent at a restaurant, at a movie theatre, at a public park or something. And because women didn't have access to much of their own money it became the man who was spending money on the woman, etc. and that really is a 20th century phenomenon.
KAREN: Well, and it has seemed to me, even fairly recently, I talk with some friends about there are times when you're not sure whether you're on a date or you're just having dinner together, and one of the indicators is what night of the week is it, and one of the indicators is who pays.
LAUREN: And that is an interesting question as well, because, of course, many women do now have access to their own money, and so, you know, I can remember in the 80s and 90s there being this sort of debate about, as a woman should you or should you not offer to pay, insist on paying, go dutch. As soon as women did start having their own incomes the old rules didn't fit quite as well.
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Interestingly, an MSN article, posted just today, confirms Winner's hypothesis that dating has become linked to spending money, and the feeling of both Karen and Lauren that it's hard to tell what's serious and what's not these days.
Here's the relevant excerpt from the MSN article:
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Two Tickets to the Drive-In
Ladies, where is he taking you? Dinner and a movie? What a genius. A true sign of interest rests in the male that transcends cliché. There is nothing wrong with eating and entertainment, but Male A will try to outdo any other possible dates you might have been on. His dating habits will reflect more than five minutes of planning.
If your man takes you to the opera, the art gallery, or for a midnight walk-on-the-beach, chances are he's not looking for a mini-series, rather a romance that goes beyond the end of the season. In other words, he's Male A.
If he's borderline Male B on the other hand, most of your dates will peculiarly allow for and promote fornication (after or during the movie).
The Birthday/Holiday Scenario
Money talks. The ratio of income to output megaphones his interest. This means cherish him if he's blue collar and still buys you those diamond earings he saw you try on at the mall. If he's white collar and can only muster a pair of shoes that clashes with everything he's seen you wear, take a step away and back into the dating game.
If the first three months of your relationship evades any major gift-giving scenario, Male A will nonetheless invent reasons for flowers, candy, and surprise gifts. If his interest parallels his words, he will do everything possible to encourage that sweet smile you surrender when he surprises you with a box of Laura Secord.
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The other three "signs" include "Meeting The Parents" (is he willing and interested in doing this?), "A Shift in Focus" (from his buddies to you), and "Libido" (aka sex drive -- a guy who's serious will wait). The author also suggests testing Mr. Potential: "Put Him to the Test ... say you stop calling and start inventing all sorts of appointments, what will happen? Try it. Male A will wait – Male B will move on." Hmmm -- that last bit sounds manipulative to me.
Lauren and Karen also make observations relevant to meeting the parents and libido.
The world of dating changed exponentially over the 20th century and has left us without bearings in the 21st century. There are a lot of people -- religious and secular -- trying to describe the terrain, but who can provide us with navigational tools? Lauren is helpful: "there is no biblical approach to dating, because dating didn't exist until the early 20th century, really. But there are biblical principles about how to have relationships with other people that I think apply and that we can translate into the dating situation." What does it look like to love another person as a brother or sister in Christ? This is the key question as we approach romantic relationships. In the beginning, in the middle, in the end, we are siblings in Christ.
NOTE: Unfortunately, only half of Lauren's interview would load on my computer. I'm going to try a different computer tomorrow. See if you have better success at accessing the whole thing.
At one point Lauren and her interviewer, Karen, discuss the role of automobiles and money in the dating game. Here's the excerpt:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KAREN: Let's back up to that for just a minute. As you outline briefly in your essay, dating is a fairly recent occurence that comes about partly because the automobile makes it possible to leave the house. My grandmother tells stories that she was forbidden to date men with automobiles -- she found one with an airplane, but that was just to frustrate her parents, I think. But prior to that, and I thought this was really interesting, a woman really had an awful lot of power in a relationship in that it was up to her to invite or permit a young man to come court her, to come visit her, that was within her control. Dating reverses that.
LAUREN: And that's a very interesting point in terms of the way that some evangelical writers, back to the gender roles issue, say that women should not initiate in a dating relationship. Well, in the, say, late 19th century and there was no dating yet, and people "called on" young women, as you say, it was really up to the young woman and her parents to receive or not receive someone who was coming to call on her. And the woman really actually did have a lot more authority than she had in, say, 1930. So what had happened by 1930 was, as you say, the automobile made it possible for people not to just sit on the front porch, but to actually go out on a date. And what happened when people began going out was that dating became associated with spending money. So you knew you were going on a date when money was being spent at a restaurant, at a movie theatre, at a public park or something. And because women didn't have access to much of their own money it became the man who was spending money on the woman, etc. and that really is a 20th century phenomenon.
KAREN: Well, and it has seemed to me, even fairly recently, I talk with some friends about there are times when you're not sure whether you're on a date or you're just having dinner together, and one of the indicators is what night of the week is it, and one of the indicators is who pays.
LAUREN: And that is an interesting question as well, because, of course, many women do now have access to their own money, and so, you know, I can remember in the 80s and 90s there being this sort of debate about, as a woman should you or should you not offer to pay, insist on paying, go dutch. As soon as women did start having their own incomes the old rules didn't fit quite as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interestingly, an MSN article, posted just today, confirms Winner's hypothesis that dating has become linked to spending money, and the feeling of both Karen and Lauren that it's hard to tell what's serious and what's not these days.
Here's the relevant excerpt from the MSN article:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How to Know If He Is Serious About A Relationship
Two Tickets to the Drive-In
Ladies, where is he taking you? Dinner and a movie? What a genius. A true sign of interest rests in the male that transcends cliché. There is nothing wrong with eating and entertainment, but Male A will try to outdo any other possible dates you might have been on. His dating habits will reflect more than five minutes of planning.
If your man takes you to the opera, the art gallery, or for a midnight walk-on-the-beach, chances are he's not looking for a mini-series, rather a romance that goes beyond the end of the season. In other words, he's Male A.
If he's borderline Male B on the other hand, most of your dates will peculiarly allow for and promote fornication (after or during the movie).
The Birthday/Holiday Scenario
Money talks. The ratio of income to output megaphones his interest. This means cherish him if he's blue collar and still buys you those diamond earings he saw you try on at the mall. If he's white collar and can only muster a pair of shoes that clashes with everything he's seen you wear, take a step away and back into the dating game.
If the first three months of your relationship evades any major gift-giving scenario, Male A will nonetheless invent reasons for flowers, candy, and surprise gifts. If his interest parallels his words, he will do everything possible to encourage that sweet smile you surrender when he surprises you with a box of Laura Secord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The other three "signs" include "Meeting The Parents" (is he willing and interested in doing this?), "A Shift in Focus" (from his buddies to you), and "Libido" (aka sex drive -- a guy who's serious will wait). The author also suggests testing Mr. Potential: "Put Him to the Test ... say you stop calling and start inventing all sorts of appointments, what will happen? Try it. Male A will wait – Male B will move on." Hmmm -- that last bit sounds manipulative to me.
Lauren and Karen also make observations relevant to meeting the parents and libido.
The world of dating changed exponentially over the 20th century and has left us without bearings in the 21st century. There are a lot of people -- religious and secular -- trying to describe the terrain, but who can provide us with navigational tools? Lauren is helpful: "there is no biblical approach to dating, because dating didn't exist until the early 20th century, really. But there are biblical principles about how to have relationships with other people that I think apply and that we can translate into the dating situation." What does it look like to love another person as a brother or sister in Christ? This is the key question as we approach romantic relationships. In the beginning, in the middle, in the end, we are siblings in Christ.
NOTE: Unfortunately, only half of Lauren's interview would load on my computer. I'm going to try a different computer tomorrow. See if you have better success at accessing the whole thing.
posted by Colleen McCubbin at 1:44 AM
1 Comments:
Call me if I'm wrong, but does not Lauren imply that women should be initiating, because in the past she sees them having a greater role in that. To quote:
"Well, in the, say, late 19th century and there was no dating yet, and people "called on" young women, as you say, it was really up to the young woman and her parents to receive or not receive someone who was coming to call on her."
This really has nothing to do with a woman initiating, but only her reaction to the initiation of a potential suitor.
It's interesting to look worldwide at the joining customs, from arranged marriage, the women initiating in the Wodobe Tribe in Africa.
Just a ramble
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